> Are you assuming that he is making this observation in comparison to college women?
I don't really care. Whether he thinks that college women are misogynist, or misandrist, or whatever is supposed to be the comparison; 'most college men are misogynistic' is a pretty stones-in-glasshouses thing to utter after having complained about other peoples broad generalizations being a result of selection bias. It's fine if it is backed up, but without substantiating it, why would I readily assume that this kind of judgement comes from kind of reasoned perspective, instead of just hanging out with the "wrong" people (which was what Michael originally claimed the author was doing)?
> I think the observation has to do with who holds the preponderance of power. In the artificial age-segregated school environments we've created, young, inexperienced people dealing with the full flush of their hormones and newly matured bodies create their own "Lord of the Flies" society, largely free of the influence of older, wiser people. Natural human instincts create concentrations of power in a minority of popular individuals, and this power corrupts.
> This is quite unfortunate, as young people in school are still forming their models of the world.
I was talking about men in college. People in university (Masters or lower) are in the age range 19-26, at least in my experience. Even if they are immature, which I won't comment on, there really isn't much of a breeding ground for this kind of environment where I go to school; everyone is responsible for handing in some compulsory assignments and showing up for the exams. How they go about doing this, is up to them. Unlike in high school, people aren't confined to hanging out at the same place from 8000-1500 (again; just my experience), and if some person is disagreeing to you, it is relatively simple to avoid them.
Michael seemed to talk about how these men view women is due to who they hang out with. And certainly, at a decent sized university, you're not strictly confined to whoever happens to take the same classes that you do.
EDIT: I see that the two O'Church fans have been able to get their jollies by now.
I also upvoted you, because I think your observation that there's a bunch of selection bias in Michael's perspective itself is right-on. However, I also upvoted Michael himself, because I thought his description of the system itself was also right-on. People can be aware of how systems work while still falling victim to those particular dynamics themselves. And on Hacker News, we try to critique the ideas themselves rather than the people behind them.
FWIW, in my own personal experience, most of the guys I went to college with were not misogynists. Most of them actually seemed pretty nerdy, with both men and women alike enjoying LARPing, duct-tape swordplay, D&D, and board games...and another group that enjoyed sailing and Kings...and another group that was all about music and arts...and another group that was all into technology & philosophy. This is probably a reflection of who I am. There were one or two people I can think of who were misogynist assholes, but I didn't really hang out with them much, besides reading about them in the school newspaper or hearing an exasperated sigh that mentioned them.
I also have not met many truly horrible people in the workforce, so I suspect that is also selection bias. I'm sure they exist; I just don't work for companies or teams where they make up a majority, I usually can sense them in the interview process and steer clear, or quit and find a new job if they start popping up.
Upvoted. HN is full of shallow younglings who self-righteously downvote to disagree. I miss the old days when PG discouraged that. (Not that that was ever effective, which is probably why the policy changed. It's just the climate was different.)
Michael seemed to talk about how these men view women is due to who they hang out with.
The point is that they have more agency when it comes to who they hang out with and associate with, compared to the stereotypical high school environments (and the lord of the flies tendencies that that can lead to, that you mentioned).
Okay, so a lot of college age folks choose to be in a "Lord of the Flies" dynamic. I'm not so sure they're completely aware of what they're in and I'm not comforted by the notion that they choose it. (Nor by my memories of my own choices in that direction.)
I don't really care. Whether he thinks that college women are misogynist, or misandrist, or whatever is supposed to be the comparison; 'most college men are misogynistic' is a pretty stones-in-glasshouses thing to utter after having complained about other peoples broad generalizations being a result of selection bias. It's fine if it is backed up, but without substantiating it, why would I readily assume that this kind of judgement comes from kind of reasoned perspective, instead of just hanging out with the "wrong" people (which was what Michael originally claimed the author was doing)?
> I think the observation has to do with who holds the preponderance of power. In the artificial age-segregated school environments we've created, young, inexperienced people dealing with the full flush of their hormones and newly matured bodies create their own "Lord of the Flies" society, largely free of the influence of older, wiser people. Natural human instincts create concentrations of power in a minority of popular individuals, and this power corrupts.
> This is quite unfortunate, as young people in school are still forming their models of the world.
I was talking about men in college. People in university (Masters or lower) are in the age range 19-26, at least in my experience. Even if they are immature, which I won't comment on, there really isn't much of a breeding ground for this kind of environment where I go to school; everyone is responsible for handing in some compulsory assignments and showing up for the exams. How they go about doing this, is up to them. Unlike in high school, people aren't confined to hanging out at the same place from 8000-1500 (again; just my experience), and if some person is disagreeing to you, it is relatively simple to avoid them.
Michael seemed to talk about how these men view women is due to who they hang out with. And certainly, at a decent sized university, you're not strictly confined to whoever happens to take the same classes that you do.
EDIT: I see that the two O'Church fans have been able to get their jollies by now.