Yep, Asians need to learn how to play the race politics card. All those white politicians didn't get into the white house because they had good grades, but because they knew how to play to the crowd. In a democratic society, if you don't know how to get others to like you you'll always be screwed by someone who does. Remember, the employee that gets promoted isn't the one that works the hardest, but the one that their coworkers like the best. Reality isn't school, you aren't judged by the letters on a report card but how well you can navigate through a society made of other individuals. Whether that's by kissing up to white male bosses on wall street or being surrounded by minority activists on main street, social manipulation skills gives much more leverage than hard technical skills.
I think Asians also need to push back a little against the "there are too many Asians in tech" viewpoint. We face a considerable amount of racism and underpromotion (especially into management roles), but there is rarely any activism that's directed towards resolving these problems. A lot of initiatives I have seen in tech explicitly exclude Asians, so I'm wondering if there's initiatives directed at us.
(2) there are plenty of Asians in tech. The real under presentation is in sports and entertainment. Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they?
> Which kind of Asians are being under-promoted? Satya, Sundar, Arvind?
This rather specious argument comes up so often I am going to start calling it the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" (sorry Arvind!). Do you also dismiss the concerns of women not being promoted into management roles by citing the examples of Mary Barra and Marissa Meyer?
The US as a whole is very different from Silicon Valley. If the number of people making cow worship jokes at various jobs (here in the middle US) I have heard is any indication, I have a hard time believing they are also simultaneously giving Asians a fair shake at promotion.
Regarding your points – I do believe that East Asians are likely underpromoted relative to their number in tech. One question that's not covered in there is language – of my friends who are first-generation immigrants, the South Asian ones generally have better English than the East/South-East Asian ones.
> there are plenty of Asians in tech.
I...wasn't arguing otherwise. My point was about not being promoted as fast as their counterparts, and into management roles.
> Yet no asian parents are lamenting that their kids didn't get an audition are they?
I don't know about parents, but plenty of South Asian actors have had problems getting auditions. Read about how Kalpen Suresh Modi's auditions skyrocketed when he Anglicized his name to Kal Penn [1], and how Aziz Ansari has had trouble with roles where he's required to fake an accent [2]. East Asians have had a hard time with getting roles in movies that are about East Asians, which was why Crazy Rich Asians was such a landmark (in that it actually had an Asian cast). [3]
Women being promoted less has nothing to do with being under-promoted on purpose but more to do with women not asking enough for promotions and also willing to give credit to others instead of taking the credit themselves. And this is also not just true about women, it's also true for men who are shy or scared of speaking up for promotion. This applies to first generation immigrants too - often because they might be too self conscious of speaking up.
Companies don't simply give away promotions easily - you have to ask for it and also show why you deserve it. Otherwise whoever speaks up the most and is willing to ask for it gets it.
One thing I learnt at one of my work places from one of the senior managers was how to climb up the ladder. He said the most important thing is to keep a folder on your computer/email where you forward all customer emails who thank you for the outstanding job you did or coworker feedback on how helpful you are or team leader feedback on how awesome you have been. It's very similar to resume except this is the resume for climbing up the ladder at your existing work place. And ask for promotion as soon as you think you deserve it. Also be humble but don't be a door mat where you give away the credit of your work to someone else. Take credit yourself. I did these for many years and always climbed up. I also improved my english and got more confident at speaking up (I am a South Asian immigrant and could barely speak english when I first arrived).
Jordan Peterson's advice has helped me tremendously too:
You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true? Also you suggest that language fluency might be a factor? Read the study [1]. Here's an abstract:
> Across nine studies (n = 11,030) using mixed methods (archival analyses of chief executive officers, field surveys in large US companies, student leader nominations and elections, and experiments), East Asians were less likely than South Asians and whites to attain leadership positions, whereas South Asians were more likely than whites to do so. To understand why the bamboo ceiling exists for East Asians but not South Asians, we examined three categories of mechanisms—prejudice (intergroup), motivation (intrapersonal), and assertiveness (interpersonal)—while controlling for demographics (e.g., birth country, English fluency, education, socioeconomic status). Analyses
revealed that East Asians faced less prejudice than South Asians and were equally motivated by work and leadership as South
Asians. However, East Asians were lower in assertiveness, which consistently mediated the leadership attainment gap between East Asians and South Asians. These results suggest that East Asians hit the bamboo ceiling because their low assertiveness is incongruent with American norms concerning how leaders should communicate. The bamboo ceiling is not an Asian issue, but an issue of cultural fit.
As for Hollywood - obviously there is plenty of discrimination based on names, accents, and much worse. My point is, if Asians tried as hard getting into Hollywood as they did in getting into Harvard, we would be in a completely different place right now. It's hard and unfair (just like getting into and ivy) but not impossible.
> You accuse my argument ala the "Satya-Sundar fallacy" as specious because I use a few cherry picked examples to demonstrate demonstrate a general fact that isn't true?
Accuse is a strong word, but basically yes. Maybe it's a visceral reaction to something I have hear one too many times, that Asians don't face discrimination in tech because "Look at Satya and Sundar" (not exactly what you said).
But the point is that Satya and Sundar have little in common with the Midwest of America. Here, we can be shot by random guys in bars because they think we're Iranian [1]. You can guess that this kind of atmosphere might not correlate with a particularly equitable promotion process. If it helps, my intention is not to propagate a "woe is me" narrative, but to examine the possibility that Asians are treated differently (to their disadvantage) during promotion, just like other people of color.
Ironically, our discussion here and your linked study already led to a better insight than I had previously! As an admirer of Confucian values, it also makes me a little sad :|
Also, thanks for the study link! I see now that it was controlled for language, and consequently, my guess about language being a factor was simply wrong.
> Here, we can be shot by random guys in bars because they think we're Iranian
Cherry picking a single occurrence where someone shot someone for racist reasons is not how science works plus this has nothing to do with the discussion.
Microsoft, IBM, Google, Adobe, Nokia, Harman, MasterCard and PepsiCo etc all have Indian (minority) CEOs. Apple has a gay CEO. Claiming there is some bias against minorities is absurd.
Are Asians treated worse during promotions because (1) the color of their skin / physical appearance (2) the confucian values (lack of assertiveness) of the individual (3) the stereotype of confucian values (lack of assertiveness) of Asians in general
I think it's more (2) and (3) than (1). It's hard being Asian - you have the weight of all other Asians practicing confucian values dragging you down.
Time to get rid of those values - If not for yourself then for others who don't want to be weighed down by the stereotype.
