I've been using shells on Linux VMs and Macs for years now and I've probably written less than 50 functions, and the number of times I've typed sed or awk is probably lower than 100. I pull out the real scripting languages for real jobs. I only use shells for quick things.
Sure, I could write a Python script right now that would read me the last lines of a log file on a remote server. Or, I could just type something like this and hit enter: ssh user@server "tail /path/to/log"
I think what GP is trying to say is that PS is in an awkward position between the two. It has a deeper understanding than bash/zsh/whatever, but it also requires more typing. Yes, PS will fix issues like the ones you have described, but typing in long names (at least for me) defeats the purpose of using a shell in the first place. I don't want to type in "Get-Item" or whatever a million times, nor do I want to ever worry that using redirection (e.g. "something > log.txt") will mess up because PS defaults are the way they are.
> I pull out the real scripting languages for real jobs. I only use shells for quick things.
It's my experience that the latter eventually morphs into the former "without question".
And go figure, the build server doesn't have python installed. Or only has python 2. Or only python 3. Ditto for a coworker - this being game development, a lot of those coworkers aren't programmers, and won't be able to debug "hey python is missing" on their own - sucking up IT and developer time.
> It has a deeper understanding than bash/zsh/whatever, but it also requires more typing.
Aliases, tab completion... you're not wrong, but I've not found it an issue in practice. In fact, rather the opposite: I have to do a lot more reading of documentation to decode bash/zsh scripts and whatever melange of implementation specific single letter flags they happen to be using. This is perhaps because I'll script anything that gets annoying. I don't spend a huge amount of time doing bespoke commands in a shell, though.
> "Get-Item"
gi
EDIT: "Get-Alias" (or gal) will share a lot of shorthands. TIL %{...} is just using % as an alias, and that ?{...} is another option.
> nor do I want to ever worry that using redirection (e.g. "something > log.txt") will mess up because PS defaults are the way they are.
I've done a lot of redirection without problems - if there's a footgun I should know to avoid, please share!
> It's my experience that the latter eventually morphs into the former "without question".
I suppose we do vastly different things with our shells. Looking through my history, it's mostly things like "cd", "ls", "vi", "make", etc. and my longest bash script that's stood the test of time is 12 lines long, with the most complex part of it being an if statement in a string (trust me, there's a reason for that). I've ran much, much longer shell scripts, but I almost never write a shell script longer than 20 lines.
> And go figure, the build server doesn't have python installed [...] this being game development, a lot of those coworkers aren't programmers
AHHHHH ok we definitely do work in very different atmospheres! I suppose in instances where "coworkers aren't programmers, and won't be able to debug", I would just write a Python script and use PyInstaller so they could just double-click on a .exe
But if I'm on someone else's computer and they don't have Python or anything like it, then I would honestly just install Python. But I definitely see how you or anyone else would object to this, and I can totally understand the view that it's much better to use PS in this instance.
> Aliases, tab completion... you're not wrong
You're write, there are aliases and tab completion, just like on bash/zsh but on PS, I have to remember both "gi" and "Get-Item". Sure, I would use something like "gi" all the time, but whenever I look up something and see a StackOverflow answer that says "Get-Item", I have to know what that means, which means I have to memorize both the long and the short versions of a lot of things. On Linux shells, I feel like I only memorize a short thing like "cat". Sure, I also have to know what it does, but the same applies to PS.
> I have to do a lot more reading of documentation to decode bash/zsh scripts and whatever melange of implementation specific single letter flags they happen to be using
The letter flags part is a fair criticism. But don't all shells suffer that? It's the cost of writing quickly. I could Google "what is gi" but instead I choose to google "what does set -E do?"
As for the part about "reading documentation to decode bash/zsh scripts", I think that this discussion sums up why what you're saying is true for PS as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14034414
> I've done a lot of redirection without problems - if there's a footgun I should know to avoid, please share!
Here's my horror story. This is the reason I swore off PS, as stupid and emotionally-driven as that sounds
I was working on two programs. One would do stuff and print JSON to stdout, and the other would take JSON from stdin and process it. I had a Linux VM running inside Windows. From my VM, I ran something like `program1 > file.json` and then I ran `cat file.json | program2`. This way I could inspect the JSON file at any time in case something went wrong in one of the two, independent programs. Everything was working just fine.
Then I stopped writing code and testing it in my VM. I decided to go the Windows route, and update my code outside of my VM, and then run my code in PS. I ran `program1 > file.json` and it worked like a charm. Then I ran `cat file.json | program2` or whatever you run in PS (it's been a while) - but it didn't work. So I assumed it was my fault. Time to debug. I looked at `file.json` line-by-line, and it was just fine, so program1 was fine. I looked at program2 line-by-line, and it was just fine, so program2 was fine. I went to my VM and ran `program1 | program2" and everything worked fine.
How was it possible that my code worked just fine in Windows, but not in Linux? It turns out that when I ran `program1 > file.json`, it fucked up my json file in a way that was like undetectable. I ran `program1` in PS, selected the output, and copy-pasted it into a text editor, and save the file as file.json. Then I could run `cat file.json | program2` or whatever from Windows and it worked like a charm.
To this day I am not sure what happened. Also, program2 supports a file name as an argument which it will then open and read, so some of the commands I listed may be slightly different from what I actually typed, but the gist of it working perfectly in bash on Linux but not on PS was enough to destroy me. Perhaps the issue was something about encoding? Sorry if what I'm saying does not seem very concrete. Here are some links that demonstrate (possibly different) issues people have using redirection:
> But if I'm on someone else's computer and they don't have Python or anything like it, then I would honestly just install Python.
The problem is scaling this to many coworkers. At some point it becomes "wait for I.T. to get around to automating the install across the fleet" or make your scripts install python, ninja-like. But it sounds like you're more able to rely on python, so that probably makes more sense for you (if only so you don't have to rewrite the same script for non-Windows boxes.)
> Here's my horror story. This is the reason I swore off PS, as stupid and emotionally-driven as that sounds
It sounds bad enough I can totally get where you're coming from. Heck, it's basically the exact same place I'm coming from with the "strings shot my dog" quip ;)
> Perhaps the issue was something about encoding?
Something to do with e.g. UTF-8 BOMs or line endings (\r\n vs \n) would be top of my paranoia list. I'd break out a hex editor or binary diffing tool (I've used 010 Editor a couple times for this) if you find yourself in the same situation again. Understanding exactly when I have a single string with newlines vs when I have an array of strings with implicit newlines when joined isn't something I've got my head perfectly wrapped around yet in powershell, and could be another possible cause.
> Sorry if what I'm saying does not seem very concrete.
You're offering what you know, and I appreciate it :). Sorry for the short reply (I need to be somewhere...)
Sure, I could write a Python script right now that would read me the last lines of a log file on a remote server. Or, I could just type something like this and hit enter: ssh user@server "tail /path/to/log"
I think what GP is trying to say is that PS is in an awkward position between the two. It has a deeper understanding than bash/zsh/whatever, but it also requires more typing. Yes, PS will fix issues like the ones you have described, but typing in long names (at least for me) defeats the purpose of using a shell in the first place. I don't want to type in "Get-Item" or whatever a million times, nor do I want to ever worry that using redirection (e.g. "something > log.txt") will mess up because PS defaults are the way they are.