Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submit | stackghost's commentslogin

“Taint analysis” is certainly evocative.

>If you're in a shooting war, the ability to select good military targets faster than your enemy, but not necessarily with zero error, is an advantage.

I mean, yes and no. Merely selecting the targets is not really an advantage in and of itself. I'm sure Iran could select hundreds of targets in the 48 States at the drop of a hat, but they don't have the air power to hit those targets so the air tasking cycle breaks down.

The air tasking cycle upon which modern NATO air campaigns are predicated and carried out is a cyclical 6-step process:

1. objectives not yet met/effects required

2. target development/selection to deliver those effects/meet those objectives

3. weaponeering, allocation, prioritization (can a hellfire launched from a drone do this or do we need something more specialized?)

4. actually write and issue the air tasking orders that cause air sorties to be flown

5. execution of said ATOs

6. assessment; GOTO 1

Normally this is a 72-hour cycle and your ops centre would be running 3+ of these cycles in overlapping fashion so that every 12-24 hours you have one loop reaching the top. AI appears to be in heavy use in the target development step, but there are diminishing returns for speed here. At some point there's just no added benefit for choosing more targets because aircraft can only transit to/from the area so fast. Also the other loops are still running and you're potentially developing targets without knowledge of effects being delivered by the other ATO loops so you're now wasting effort. In other words it's not like a computer where more hertz is better; you might get better results by simply waiting for one of the other cycle's kinetic results that will better inform your own target development stage.


Jeff Goldblum with a thinkpad, maybe

Jev Goldblum? He’s all the hype today

Artificial Life, um, finds a way

I don’t particularly care for MacOS but Apple’s hardware is generally best in class, particularly for battery life, touchpad, and other laptop specifics.

Huawei has been shipping decent MBA-like laptops for some years now. The latest Panther Lake laptops seem to have made some leaps towards Apple on the hardware side as well. I still won't expect any Windows laptop in these form factors to outlive most MacBooks though.

They exhibit behaviours that seem to defy alternative explanations, though I doubt anyone could say for certain whether they do or don’t

You could have an alternative explanation: large animals invest lots of food energy in their offspring, and so the slimmest chance that a calf might not be dead is worth lots of effort. Say one in a thousand actually revive.

Here's an article about orcas: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-64559047

It seems that an orca invests so much in a son that it's like an all-or-nothing one way ticket to pass her genes on. (She might get second try later, but the probability is much lower.)


You might also argue that although there may be a non-emotional argument for why grieving could be beneficial, it’s possible or even likely that evolution encoded this instinct in something like emotions. Just how evolution encoded the tendency to care for one’s family and community in emotions for humans.

Yes! Which leads into strange territory, because we can say that attachment is not entirely rational, but is influenced by genes pointing us toward more successful reproduction, without concern for creating knowledge. But then this environment of instincts is the environment we've built up all our cultural store of meaning in, it's the human condition, so the argument can be turned around to say that meaning isn't entirely rational. So even gene-driven attachment isn't meaningless, but at the same time, I don't want to be bullied and herded around emotionally by little nucleic acid spirals just so they can replicate themselves.

Indeed. The same goes for widows at funerals. I mean, has anyone ever dissected the brain of a grieving human and said “aha hah! Here it is!! The grief!”

No, of course I haven't been doing that, and it's going to be a while before I would have collected a representative sample anyway, if I had been.

> They exhibit behaviours that seem to defy alternative explanations

No, they really don't. The article says

> indicated an inherent, strong maternal attachment to the calf

Yeah, that's not grieving.


What if I told you that marine biology is a large and rigorous field that is not fully encapsulated by TFA?

Kudos to the author for not being so bitter and jaded, like me, and reporting this thinking some change might come.

I have mostly resigned myself to watching in unsurprised disgust as tech companies (aided by oodles of HN users who work there!) ruin everything they touch with legal impunity.



> the design goal is not to maximise interactions

The design (not sure about its goal) maximizes incentive for medium-complexity ideas being expressed in comments with at most a handful of replies.

The “comments on a submission with ranking based on votes” model is fundamentally unsuited for in-depth, thoughtful discussions. Everything we write in this comment section will be mostly forgotten by tomorrow because there is no notification system for when someone replies to your comments.

Zero people are going back through old submissions more than a day or two old and looking for insightful comments to reply to.


For those of us scanning Hacker News by RSS, this additional feed is helpful

https://hnrss.github.io/#reply-feeds


> However, only some vowels

Pretty sure it’s all vowels isn’t it?

“Thee”: apple, evening, island, offer, underpass

“Thus”: any other words where you don’t need to avoid a glottal stop to differentiate the word.


I realized long after the edit window expired that autocorrect changed it to “thus”.

Hmm... I think an /u/ ("oo") triggers "thuh" for me, as in "the ubermensch." But that might just be my idiolect.

I wonder if there is a library to decipher brood war replay files. Perhaps an agent could learn by watching.

Yes, e.g. https://github.com/gulshngill/bwrepanalysis. But I doubt an agent would learn much from them without a lot of additional processing - the replay files are little more than a stream of the orders given during the match (e.g. "at tick 17, player 1 ordered unit 234 to attack-move to 56,78"). They're difficult to make sense of without a lot of additional context, like the map layout, the location and status of other units, what parts of all that are actually visible to each player, etc.

I haven’t checked for SC:BW but Blizzard has official parsers/replayers for SC2 on GitHub.

Not hard to build. I was shocked at how fast/easy this was to pull together.

> The attack requires physical access, destructive preparation, and approximately $250,000 of laboratory equipment.

Not super practical, but neat attack


250k is not a bad investment for a company doing "reverse engineering as a service" - say 1k a pop to extract the firmware. Naturally, a good business idea for somewhere in the world with less regulations...

That is peanuts for a nation-state actor.

Most attackers aren't nation states, and your security shouldn't rely on obscurity anyways. Having to attack each individual device and having to get specialized equipment to do a highly-skilled attack breaks the vast majority of attack scenarios.

This isn't Hollywood. What actually matters to companies is that some 15-year-old with a Flipper Zero can't trivially break your printer ink DRM scheme, and that your debit card can't be cloned without leaving plenty of evidence.

Worried about nation-state attacks? Then don't rely solely on sub-$1 hobbyist-level chips for your security!


Sure, but if you’re defending against a nation state actor hopefully you aren’t expecting a raspberry pi to keep you secure.

> Sure, but if you’re defending against a nation state actor hopefully you aren’t expecting a raspberry pi to keep you secure.

Is there anything about these techniques that are raspberry pi specific? It seems like they're using lasers to identify and flip particular bits in registers.


There are HSMs that are effectively immune to this attack by way of their construction and packaging. You need an optical path to the secure device. The only way to get at this is to tamper with the tamperproof part of the system.

Some very high end HSMs must be actively powered at all times which makes disturbances in their local environments detectable at all times as well. Getting lucky and drilling through a part of the enclosure that isn't directly protected won't help you if a barometric pressure sensor is tripped as a consequence of breaking the hermetic seal.


It sounds like a more cleaner method to obtain the keys versus using solvents and a lot of trial and error hardware. As described by Chris Gerlinsky with "How Do I Crack Satellite and Cable Pay TV?" [0] [1]

[0] https://simkl.com/tv/33956/chaos-communication-congress/seas...

[1] https://media.ccc.de/v/33c3-8127-how_do_i_crack_satellite_an...


> Getting lucky and drilling through a part of the enclosure that isn't directly protected won't help you if a barometric pressure sensor is tripped as a consequence of breaking the hermetic seal.

That's interesting. I suppose if that technology is in use, the attack would have to occur in a pressure-controlled chamber, so breaking the seal wouldn't cause a change in pressure.


A more likely measure, which I recall seeing years ago, is to measure the impedance of the enclosure of the thing you want to protect. If someone tampers with it, you would be alerted. It works at many scales, from a protective metal mesh over your IC to a PC case.

And you'd need to have a way to know what the pressure inside is beforehand.

You can find the pressure through destructive trial-and-error if money is no object - which it isn't for governments when the target hardware is juicy.

Why would you make each device have the same pressure inside it? That's a bit like hardcoding the same password in each one. Any attacker is only going to have one shot on the actual device they care about no matter how much money they spend.

Really sounds very very easy for any lab that can measure molecular levels of gas.

Even a very sensitive pressure checker in a temp controlled sealed box would do it.


Are any of these tamper-proof chips in my phone or laptop?

I expect typical smart cards like the one in your credit card are harder to crack than the raspberry pi was. Those cards are (or were) also used in TV set-top boxes and back in the day, there was a decades-long arms race between the chip makers and cable TV pirates. The TV pirates were also willing to make large expenditures to crack the chips so they could clone them and sell the clones. There's more about this in Ross Anderson's book "Security Engineering".

I’m actually curious now. Thanks, you’ve given me something to do this evening.

I've also heard that the Google Titan security enclave chip (used in Pixel phones) is very hard to crack. Apple has something similar for Iphones, I believe.

Same. I wonder if my Yubikeys have anything to mitigate this sort of attack. My gut feel says that at their pricepoint and form factor, probably not.

A Yubikey is basically a single chip and a bunch of plastic. At their $50 price point, there's plenty of room for some chip manufacturer to skim off a couple of dollars per chip to add an additional metal layer for a tamper protection mesh, and some other gizmos.

> You need an optical path to the secure device.

Any path can be made into an optical path with a bright enough light. >smile<


Your phone isn't going to have a "very high end HSM" any time soon. n Not until you're paying mid range car prices or more for your very specialised secure phone (and then that phone will probably be factory backdoored AN0M-style).

The RP2350 is an inexpensive microcontroller IC with reasonable performance and some very useful (and somewhat unusual) features in its PIO blocks.

Why wouldn't a person build that into the heart of something important?


"Important" and "tamper proof against a determined adversary" are very different goals.

Tamper proof against a determined adversary starts at 'call us' not at '$10'.

>Why wouldn't a person build that into the heart of something important?

Because it's inexpensive and not designed to be tamper-resistant. If preventing this type of thing is your goal there are chips out there designed to break irrepairably if tampered with.


Rp2350s are advertised as having quite a few anti-tamper functions. They had a bounty when it launched to find similar vulnerabilities and they worked to patch the ones that were found. This is a lot more credible than a lot of advertised anti-tamper features.

Not really. The RP2350 just adds some bog-standard security features the ESP32 family and plenty of others have had for ages, that's all.

The goal of the bounty is to demonstrate that they aren't just a company making toys for hobbyists, and that they can be relied upon by the industry for basic IoT-level products. They are saying "it won't be completely trivial to extract your proprietary firmware", not "use this chip for your next HSM".


Depending on what sort of important you're talking, those ICs don't have the usual "something important" environmental specs, like an extended temperature range, or certification for automotive use or safety critical applications, for one thing.

Some people have such and other toys just at work and can use it in spare time.

It reads as impressive defense. Meaning that it's presumably not possible to get root with physical access on a live 50$ device without 250k capital

This is for a $1 microcontroller. I'm assuming you're talking about the Raspberry Pi computers based on the $50 cost and root.

It's a $1 MCU, which will get embedded into a $50 device. If you're a company selling a cloud-plus-device product, then that 250k tooling cost and not-exactly-trivial attack process will be quite effective at stopping Chinese clones: with a unique per-device key there's no way they'll sell enough units to make a profit before you will inevitably ban their cloned key.

Well not chinese clones, those are well funded factories with state su subsidies, but it will definitely stop rogue individual hackers.

It's not even 250k cost, just 250k capital, it can be rented.


> $250,000 of laboratory equipment

*currently


$300,000 next year.

In 5 years, either $400,000 or $50 and a hammer, depending on whether the core piece of the process aligns with the needs of some fast-growing consumer tech product like e.g. drones.

I think GP was making a joke about RAM prices. Makes me wonder what is the effect of the RAMpocalypse on drone prices.

Maybe.

I was referencing my own realization earlier today, when I was wondering if I can DYI a ground-penetrating radar to scan the allotment garden for hidden "surprises". A ground-penetrating radar is something I learned about as a kid watching a popular science videotape, back then a stupidly expensive high-tech piece of professional equipment.

But it hit me that there are two main forces keeping such technologies stupidly expensive and inaccessible to general public over time: costs of knowledge that went into their design (protected by patents and trade secrets), and specialized parts made in unique way or from unique materials, that don't happen to have alternate applications.

Nowadays, knowledge is not an issue - 20+ years is enough for all the relevant patents to expire, and information to have seeped through to the Internet, available in a combination of Wikipedia articles, textbooks, scientific papers, and blogs, plus we have good LLMs more than happy to synthesize that and transform into a DIY tutorial for dummies.

Which leaves the parts. Whether or not you can DIY such a tech really hinges on whether you can find the critical components somewhere. If they're still unique, you're paying $$$ for procurement (and it makes more sense to try and score broken/used equipment off eBay or something). But there's a chance there's a close equivalent that's part of mass consumer or prosumer device, at which point you just buy it and strip it for parts.

(Which way it is with ground-penetrating radars? Don't know, didn't bother to prompt an LLM with that question yet.)


Radar is cheap now, thanks to semiconductors getting smaller and faster the analog front-end which used to be a long expensive chain of components is now much smaller, the ADC is now faster, more accurate, and cheaper, the processor is now fast enough to keep up with a higher bandwidth signal. You could probably drive a very rough radar system directly off a Pico's GPIO and ADC, maybe toss in a decently fast op-amp for a receive amplifier.

Where you will run into issues is processing radar signals into usable data. If you're happy with the results that radar was giving 30 years ago then it's fine and dandy, but the magic of modern radar is in the software, not the hardware.


Someone I know has developed radar hardware, specifically around signal processing, and while they couldn’t say much, my impression from them was that due the very large amount of data involved using off the shelf CPUs would be very limiting, which is why his job for a period of years was developing a design to be put on an ASIC which is significantly more effective at the task.

Can confirm, radar signal processing is very bandwidth heavy and not suited to a typical CPU.

Can also confirm that it is generally regarded as impolite to talk too much about it!


"impolite" is probably an understatement in the context of discussing details about the development of defense systems outside of work.

The more difficult part will be RF licensing. You'll probably need a ham radio license to get started that's somewhat near a band where you can acquire a commercial typerated license... but under no circumstances you can just go and try shit out unless you want to risk serious fines from your local authorities.

I thought it was a joke about inflation - the US is now trying to print its way out of debt as yields are soaring. This is the very beginning of how hyperinflation usually starts.

I was, yep! Parts costs/general inflation.

We're already up to 400,000 just today.

Llms should make these cost even less im thinking $50 in 18 months?

Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: